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Vigilance needed!: |
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mibes Member Joined: 22 Mar 2008 No. of posts: 27  View other posts by mibes |
Posted: 21 Mar 2009 Last weekend down at the Charterhouse site I came across a man catching snakes (I'm not sure if they were Grassies, Adders or both) and putting them in plastic bags, when questioned he came out with the poor excuse that he'd forgotten his camera so he was going to take them home to photograph then bring them back later. If anyone would like further information or a description of the man please feel free to contact me. More Galleries at my site.. Time in motion |
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Robert V Senior Member Joined: 06 Aug 2004 No. of posts: 717 View other posts by Robert V |
Posted: 21 Mar 2009 In plastic bags! That says it all. No herp enthusiast worth his salt would place grassies in plastic bags to take home to photograph! I've had the same sort of thing up here. Where's the market for them, that's what I want to know. Please PM me the details, I'll see if he resembles any of the iffy's that I've seen up here. I'm sure they're using our info on this site. maybe we should restrict ourselves to where we say we're studying, what do you think??
RobV |
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tim-f Senior Member Joined: 13 Apr 2008 No. of posts: 60  View other posts by tim-f |
Posted: 21 Mar 2009 Sad to say, but I think we should be careful about being too specific about locations. I've been a birder for years, and in breeding season forum posts are very circumspect about sightings of rarities. There are those that prefer to watch birds in dead egg form in display cabinets.
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mibes Member Joined: 22 Mar 2008 No. of posts: 27 View other posts by mibes |
Posted: 22 Mar 2009 I agree, it's sad but I think we'll have to be less specific on this site. If we want to share more precise details do so through pm. More Galleries at my site.. Time in motion |
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Paul Ford Senior Member Joined: 06 Sep 2006 No. of posts: 124 View other posts by Paul Ford |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 This makes my blood boil Is he committing an offence? If I see him - is there anything I can do? Milo - have you reported it to the Ranger? |
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will Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 No. of posts: 330 View other posts by will |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 We sometimes get accused of being paranoid in London by not disclosing sites - this shows why we all need to be careful - it only takes one idiot to destroy a vulnerable herp population. I hope this guy can be 'discouraged' from this sort of thing... |
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mibes Member Joined: 22 Mar 2008 No. of posts: 27 View other posts by mibes |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 I agree Paul the more i think about it the angrier I become. I'm not sure what's the best thing to do if you see such activity. The law is a bit vague, they are not allowed to be killed or harmed or taken with the purpose of being sold. I would think there's an argument that by not handling them correctly and placing them in plastic bags he is harming them. With the help of another Herper who was in the vicinity (thanks for the support) we confronted him a suggested he put them back where he found them. I did also report him to the rangers office. I think we've all got to keep a sharp eye on the area and if we see anything try and get some photographic evidence and maybe a car registration number. More Galleries at my site.. Time in motion |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369  View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 I would suggest a call to the police saying that a man was collecting snakes to sell - hence breaking the law - check wildlife and countryside act 1981 - take a crime number from the police so next time it is reported this would jog memories especially in the higher areas of command..... As it is potentially a crime being committed - collection for sale then the police should take notice and investigate. On the destroying the herp population front I feel that a contradiction comes out of your percieved 'paranoia'. We do not disclose sites (publicly) due to idiots like the bloke described. Yet due to this non reporting to anyone apart from land owners leaves conservationists in the dark on where important sites are. We are then faced with no knowledge of reptiles on sites which are being managed for nature conservation. The managers of these sites have no difficulty in destroying reptile populations by removing important hibernation sites and other important habitats such as bracken, bramble, gorse and other non desirable plants....If we have access to site records we can all help reptiles if we see unsympathetic management being undertaken. Its a fine balancing act - though the damage to habitats have far more impact on the status of snakes than collection.....
Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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will Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2007 No. of posts: 330 View other posts by will |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 Sorry Jon, I was only trying to make the point that where adders are thin on the ground it is vital to ensure that sites are not publicly disclosed. Site managers don't fall into this category, of course; I agree that close liaison is needed Will |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=herpetologic2] I would suggest a call to the police saying that a man was collecting snakes to sell - hence breaking the law - check wildlife and countryside act 1981 [/QUOTE] We've been through this before- there is no offence of collecting to sell, so this bloke won't have committed an offence under the Wildlife & Countryside Act. He will have committed theft by taking them without the landowners permission, and if this site is a nature reserve, there may well also be a bylaw covering collection. I'd be interested to know if anyone's tried telling the police about incidents like this, and what response they got. |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 Caleb I interpreted it as there is no offence in taking other than those you have mentioned, but it was indeed an offence to be in possession if the intention is to sell. However how one can prove this is anyone's guess. We made the policy at the start and it is still there to read - don't name sites. Many I have named in the past is because others let the cat out of the bag at one time or another in any case. To be honest I think if I posted up every sensitive site I know the impact of collection would be negligible compared to the annual onslaught of destruction by so called conservationists - well you all know my views on that subject. Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 I think it is down to interpretation of the law - I thought that collection with the intent to sell, exchange etc would be an offence - it is right that would be hard to prove but we need to get the police to take notice and that interpretation would hopefully get an incident number - hence being recorded. If you fish on a water without permission you are committing theft under the relevant theft acts - My dad uses this when they have poachers to get the police to act when tough blokes decide to pitch a bivvy to fish on his lake. Anyway collecting snakes and placing them into plastic bags would be an animal welfare issue as well. We want to challenge and stop these people and the police would be the best people to deal with it. Informing the land owner would also be helpful. There are people who stuff snakes - apparently legally acquired and licensed animals as taxidermy. A description of the person and the details of the vehicle would be helpful - perhaps these details should be given to the local police to do a check J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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Peter Senior Member Joined: 17 Jan 2008 No. of posts: 260 View other posts by Peter |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 [QUOTE=herpetologic2]
Probably the best ammunition in this instance. 
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 I can't really see why involving the police for a non-existing offence is going to achieve anything. It is not an offence to catch and keep a grass snake - other than theft or by bylaw as Caleb has stated. Exactly where is the offence in placing a snake in a plastic bag, I can just see it in a magistrates court now... not. I've done it myself to collect poo samples. Vets do it all the time when weighing reptiles. The reason so much of the WCA is open to interpretation is the complete lack of any case law. If certain sectors did their job or shall we say did it well then we wouldn't have all the grey areas because they would have prosecuted the blatant offenders...oops I forgot they turn a blind eye to the conservation carnage, in fact they sanction it. If people stuff or sell snakes under licence - it is legal and however objectionable it might be there is no offence. In fact I once had an email from a particularly unpleasant chap who spent all day writing out licences for selling UK herpetofauna who ojected to the information provided on the ID pages as he thought it was misleading - i.e. the WCA provides no real protection against collection and selling at all as all one has to do is apply for a licence to make it legal.
Why doesn't ARG UK challenge the law?
Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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herpetologic2 Senior Member Joined: 15 Jun 2004 No. of posts: 1369 View other posts by herpetologic2 |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 Not a suitable container for a reptile for prolong periods of time. Transporting animals should be humane as possible - there is the new laws protecting animals - again case law is needed. I don't think that any British herpetofauna is sold under license in the UK - is this for other markets such as America or Europe? While investigating the selling of stuffed adders and grass snakes on Ebay - the licenses were issued for humanely killed animals - I think road kill but this is where the loop hole comes in - how do you prove that the snake was killed by a car (okay so it is rebuilt through the stuffing lol) How can ARG UK challenge the law when Buglife failed and we don't have the money. I am sure that licenses are not issued to sell british herpetofauna. J Vice Chair of ARG UK - self employed consultant - visit ARG UK & Alresford Wildlife |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 23 Mar 2009 Can't say I've ever applied for one Jon so I wouldn't know, only what this guy inferred in his email which went on to give the impression that some licences certainly are issued. Who would have the facts such as how many licences if any are issued, how many animals are annually collected etc? Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Caleb Forum Coordinator Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 448 View other posts by Caleb |
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 According to Natural England, from 2002-2007 there were 4 licences issued for adder sale (4 specimens) for taxidermy in 2006, and 1 for adder sale (1 specimen) in 2005. No other amphibians or reptiles are listed on those statistics; I'm not sure whether that means that no sale licences were issued, or that they're not releasing the stats. Don't forget the general licence that allows sale of amphibians collected outside the breeding season (this year's specifies adult animals only, I don't think this was specified in previous years). There are more stats on the Natural England website, including some on capture licences for the rarer species. |
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Ginger! Member Joined: 01 Jun 2007 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Ginger! |
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 Gents - most Police forces now have a wildlife liaison officer. Generally one with an enthusiasm for wildlife matters and therefore more likely to take an interest and do the necessary work. Doubtless telling you what you know but it is an offence to trade, sell or otherwise exchange Natrix. It may be difficult to get this man to a prosecution but unless you fear his responses, photograph him and his car if possible. Probably enough in itself to put him off. (There is no offence of photgraphing anyone in the public arena, there is no privacy law) Contact your local force and ask for the wildlife liaison officer and pass on the details. He may already be known and you may be adding to intelligence about him, if nothing else. I'm in Essex, I'll find out for you if you tell me the force area. |
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Ginger! Member Joined: 01 Jun 2007 No. of posts: 6 View other posts by Ginger! |
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 Sorry, posted my response to 'gents' forgetting Gemma. Can I suggest caution exchanging site location details on pm. Anyone can register on this site and you could still be taken in. I wouldn't dream to suggest what you do but if I were in your shoes I'd be wanting to meet someone, as a minimum, before revealing a location. Just for the record I can rarely find the damn things, have to make do with your photos! Occupational size 12's maybe... |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090 View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 24 Mar 2009 Ginger! Welcome, wow I didn't know there were such things... well actually I did. So the next time I see a wildlife trust dig up an adder hibernaculum thus endangering the entire site population you are the one to call?? Or are you only interested in members of the public putting snakes in bags? Jesting aside, if you are anywhere near Essex and want to see some animals and have an exchange of views, I would be more than happy to show you them. As long as you can identify yourself etc. before I tell you where.  Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
- Vigilance needed! |
